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Public Address
Since: Nov 2006
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Legal Beagle: You always wanted a compact

As the US election moves up a gear – with the selection of running mates (Obama – Good Choice!) and the Democratic and Republican nominating conventions at which the presumptive nominees will become the actual nominees are about to kick off – I thought it time to look at how the actual vote will go, and the prospects of it changing any time soon.

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Paul Campbell
From: Dunedin
Since: Nov 2006
Posts: 592

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The electoral college made sense pre-telegraph where the logistics of electing a national president in such a large country involved taking the ballot results to a central location - electing people to represent you to do that made a lot of sense - these days CNN wants results within hours of the polls closing

I think that the main reason why the big states wont move to proportional representation is because of the effect that would have on the dominant party in their state - for example in California there's been a push from the Republicans to change - because they would win the most (close to half of Ca's electoral votes in a state that hasn't voted for them in years) - while the Democrats who have tended to dominate both the state govt (where the change would have to come from) and the state presidential vote would have the most to lose .... if you're winning a state and in control you don;t want change here, it's not in your interest

It's more an issue of "how can we get them all to change at once" - if they could do that then they would get more buy in .... problem is that Americans seem to b e very conservative with their electoral system - the status quo is very much entrenched in people's minds

A few years ago there was a push for a solution to the "change all at once" problem where some big state people proposed local changes that do along the lines of "if our state plus enough other states to hold a majority of the electoral college then we will appoint our states electors to represent the winner of the national vote" which solves the change problem because local representation doesn't change until enough states are in the pot and it avoids the small states for whom this would reduce their representation (someone in Wyoming, as you say, gets a much larger representation that in CA).

The up sides? all states are in play, presidential candidates have to pay attention to ALL states, not just the few that might change

The down side? well think of Florida, 2000 spread across every state, city and ballot box in the country .... and think of the money they'd have to spend to advertise in the larger media markets - they don't spend much in CA, or NY or TX these days because we already know where those states will vote

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Graeme Edgeler
From: Wellington, New Zealand
Since: Nov 2006
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I think that the main reason why the big states wont move to proportional representation is because of the effect that would have on the dominant party in their state - for example in California there's been a push from the Republicans to change - because they would win the most

Absolutely. Allocating electoral votes (for the presidency) proportionately doesn't make a lot of sense, and it certainly doesn't on a piecemeal basis.

The up sides? ... The down side...

Some of the arguments arrayed for and against the electoral college/the national popular vote get kinda cool: the electoral college is bad, because it means that state actions disenfranchising voters don't harm a state's voice in the presidential race, for example.

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Paul Campbell
From: Dunedin
Since: Nov 2006
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well I'd disagree - allocating electoral voters for the presidency would make sense if every state did it (and that avoids a constitutional change) but doing it piecemeal would disrupt the rather delicate balance that keeps the bigger states out of play and gives the smaller states more relative power which IMHO is the real barrier to reform

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Graeme Edgeler
From: Wellington, New Zealand
Since: Nov 2006
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well I'd disagree - allocating electoral voters for the presidency would make sense if every state did it

And if every state did it, the 2000 Presidential election would have been won by George Bush, and Joe Lieberman would have been his Vice President.

And just about every presidential election following would also have been determined by the House of Representatives, and the Vice-Presidential race by the Senate, because no candidate would get the required electoral college majority.

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Paul Campbell
From: Dunedin
Since: Nov 2006
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ah but remember the electoral college is supposed nut out the president between them - they don't have to vote for the guy they represent - in 2000 Nader would probably have ended up holding some electoral votes and eventually would have fallen in behind one of the other candidates - the congress only get involved it the EC can't eventually get its act together

But you're right - making the EC proportional at the state level (to avoid a constitutional amendment) is still a vague approximation of true representative democracy

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Graeme Edgeler
From: Wellington, New Zealand
Since: Nov 2006
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remember the electoral college is supposed nut out the president between them - they don't have to vote for the guy they represent - in 2000 Nader would probably have ended up holding some electoral votes and eventually would have fallen in behind one of the other candidates - the congress only get involved it the EC can't eventually get its act together

Nope. The electoral college doesn't even meet. Each state's delegation meets seperately in its own state, not even all states on the same day, just some time before Congress first meets for the new term.

They tally up their votes and send the results, from their one round of voting, to Congress, which opens them up and certifies the result as their first(?) item of business.

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Paul Campbell
From: Dunedin
Since: Nov 2006
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hmm you're right - I wonder why I ended up think they actually got to meet and argue? I guess it has something to do with some states which used to actually directly elect (or appoint) the electors and they potentially get to argue

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Don Christie
From: Wellington
Since: Nov 2006
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I'm not a great critic of the electoral college – sure it's an anachronism, but I think it is a legitimate way for a country (particularly a federation) to choose its head of Government – the national compact is just a really clever idea...

Hey, it worked for the USSR so why fix it?

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Idiot Savant
From: Palmerston North
Since: Nov 2006
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A few years ago there was a push for a solution to the "change all at once" problem where some big state people proposed local changes that do along the lines of "if our state plus enough other states to hold a majority of the electoral college then we will appoint our states electors to represent the winner of the national vote" which solves the change problem because local representation doesn't change until enough states are in the pot and it avoids the small states for whom this would reduce their representation (someone in Wyoming, as you say, gets a much larger representation that in CA).

That would be the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, which currently has 50 of the 270 electoral college votes it needs (but may be about to swag California). And it seems to be a pretty good solution to a C18th anachronism.

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Graeme Edgeler
From: Wellington, New Zealand
Since: Nov 2006
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So no-one read to the end of my piece? :-(

Are they too long :-)

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Don Christie
From: Wellington
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Um, I just quoted the end...does that count?

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Simon Grigg
From: Bali, Indonesia
Since: Nov 2006
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Hey, it worked for the USSR so why fix it?

And is roughly equivalent to the way it works in China, or at least is supposed to work in China, albeit with several layers of electors.

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Sacha
From: Ak
Since: May 2008
Posts: 882

Graeme, I have to admit my eyes glazed over before I got there. :)

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Sacha
From: Ak
Since: May 2008
Posts: 882

And not in a nice way.. :)

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Tim McKenzie
From: Lower Hutt
Since: Apr 2007
Posts: 37

... and the Senate chuses the Vice President (which, if you think about it, is how we choose our Prime Minister).

Is there a legal distinction between the US Constitution's "chuse" and the ordinary word "choose"? :)

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Graeme Edgeler
From: Wellington, New Zealand
Since: Nov 2006
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No.

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Susan Snowdon
Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 53

So no-one read to the end of my piece? :-(

I really really wanted to. I think I needed some visuals, maybe a map and some graphs. Or pie charts.

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Idiot Savant
From: Palmerston North
Since: Nov 2006
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So no-one read to the end of my piece? :-(

D'oh.

I hope the link helped anyway.

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Steve Barnes
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Since: Dec 2006
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Is there a legal distinction between the US Constitution's "chuse" and the ordinary word "choose"? :)

As Graeme said but a valid point considering spelling mistakes were not unheard of in the constitution.

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Gareth Ward
From: Auckland, NZ
Since: Mar 2007
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So no-one read to the end of my piece? :-(

Or read the title either it seems =)

Don't worry, I did - and even kinda half almost possibly understood a partial amount of it. On the second read.
But when I DID get there, I agree - that Compact is very cool although fraught with all kinds of obvious challenges from those who disagree with it.

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